Charm Person Spell

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Charm Person Spell

Post  Kakashi on Crack on Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:48 pm

So, with my limited time on the server, I've noticed the charm person spell (the one found on the spire charm especially) is being used as a dominate person spell, and would like to point out that since I haven't found anything on the forums/server saying otherwise, I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Especially considering some of the commands that I've seen used making it seem like an abusive spell...

Since NWN follows the core 3.5 rules, I decided to copy the definition of charm person and dominate person here directly from my core rule book:

Charm Person:
Enchantment (charm) [mind affecting]
Level: Bard 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1
Components: Verbal, Somatic
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft/2 levels) (meaning the spire charm would only be able to be sent from 30 feet, about 2 tiles or less away)
Target: One Humanoid Creature
Duration: 1 hour/level (meaning that the spire charm effect would last for 10 hours or until the spell is broken by some means)
Saving Throw: Will Negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as a trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly; see influencing NPC attitudes, page 72). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it recieves a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the person as if it were an automaton, but it percieves your actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.


==========


Dominate Person
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Bard 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 5 (I think this is a bit high of a level spell for a more common item such as the spire charm)
Components: Verbal, Somatic
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid
Duration: One day/level (if this were the spire charm, it could last for potentially 10 days)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind.
If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” and “Stand still.” You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically.
Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description).
Changing your instructions or giving a dominated creature a new command is the equivalent of redirecting a spell, so it is a move action.
By concentrating fully on the spell (a standard action), you can receive full sensory input as interpreted by the mind of the subject, though it still can’t communicate with you. You can’t actually see through the subject’s eyes, so it’s not as good as being there yourself, but you still get a good idea of what’s going on.
Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it.
If you don’t spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination.
Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect neither prevents the establishment of domination nor dispels it.


==========


the NWN description for charm person states it improves the friendliness of a target by 50%. NWN (I think) runs off of a 200% friendliness scale (or maybe it was a negative 100 to 100%) in which 0% translates as "I want to kill you on the spot then skull fuck you" and 200% translates as *is spread eagle on the bed waiting* (or for some sickos, the two examples are reversed)


Point being, for the core rule definition, the charmed person would react in the best manner to something, but it doesn't mean they'd comply to it. If its something they normally wouldn't do, then a charisma (or I guess bluff/persuade check) would be needed to do so (and you'd probably get some kind of bonus), but you wouldn't be able to get them to do something they never would do. For instance, you wouldn't be able to force a lawful good paladin to kill a good guy, or force a prudent young woman who's sensitive about their body to take off all their clothes.


Meanwhile with the NWN definition, the charmed person reacts in a better manner. Someone who hates your guts would only mildly dislike you, someone who's neutral would like you, someone who likes you would absolutely love you, etc. and their reactions would be based off of their own mannerisms and the like.




Now to get to the point, and for all the "too long didn't reads" the premesis of this is simple. To inform people that charm person is not the same as dominate person, and that you can't simply force someone to RP something by using it. Now that doesn't make it useless, and a charismatic player could use it to convince someone to do something they normally wouldn't, but it wouldn't flat out "make them do whatever you say" in the same way dominate would. I beleive I'm in the right for making this, and I used the term "you" because its simpler than making up a series of words to express what needed to be said, I'm sorry if someone feels personally accused.

also, are we using the nwn standard, or core rules standard for the spell, and for that matter, most/all spells?



EDIT: The purpouse of this thread and future threads I might make regarding spells is the fact that I don't think new players/uninformed players should be misinformed about how spells work and forced into situations that otherwise wouldn't have happened. I am not attempting to overstep the authoritive bounds and await further input from the Admin/DMs regarding this.


Last edited by Kakashi on Crack on Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:51 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : added EDIT)
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Re: Charm Person Spell

Post  Fox on Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:09 pm

I was not aware that this was happening. If you could please direct me, in future, to people trying to bluff false rules, prefferably with screenshot evidence, I will be taking action against them.
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Re: Charm Person Spell

Post  Kakashi on Crack on Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:45 am

I'll take screenshots in the future. To be honest, this situation regarding the charm person thing caught me off-guard when I noticed it so I didn't get a chance to take screenshots and I figured it was some kind of misunderstanding to the effect of the spell and hwo it works.
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Regarding the choice of rules...

Post  Guest on Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:18 am

To answer your question, Kakashi on Crack:

are we using the nwn standard, or core rules standard for the spell, and for that matter, most/all spells?

That depends on what you and the other participants agree on, most tend to use the "nwn standard" since that's easier that rping a particle effect like a fireball damaging you... Though with Spells that aren't in the list that NWN has, I suppose the default would be the core rules.

Though on another note, thanks for getting the ambiguous question on how to rp the effect of being enthralled in the Charm Person spell.

May I ask where you read how Charm Person uses a scale to model how (in-game) an NPC is affected?

Since, as far as I understood, the benefits it gives in the campaign or certain modules is scripted and the daze affect on everyone else and a -10 appraise reduction to merchants.

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RE:Regarding the Choice of Rules

Post  Kakashi on Crack on Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:36 am

not sure if its meant that way but I keep reading that in a sarcastic tone XD

I was simply reading off the description for charm person in its spell form since my wizard has it, not going to head IG to pull it up since I don't want to be stealing time up while posting this, but the wiki definition is the same one as the one it reads IG, which is:

Spell level: bard 1; sorcerer/wizard 1
Innate level:1
School:enchantment
Descriptor:mind-affecting
Components:verbal, somatic
Range: short (8 meters)
Area of effect: single
Duration: 2 rounds + 1 / 3 levels
Save:will negates
Spell resistance: yes
Additional counterspells: clarity

Description: In the eyes of the target humanoid, the personal reputation of the caster is improved by 50%.


The reputation system (can be wiki'd up) works on a scale of 0 to 100 (I was wrong XD) so it adds 50% of what it currently is. 0-10 = hostility 11-89 indicates neutrality (of varying levels) while 90-100 = friendliness. this can be affected by a number of things, and is shown by making the highlighted object red, blue, or green in that order.

what it doesn't state, and what isn't clear is if it means improves it by 50 points, or by 50% of the current value.


Now, I'm no expert, and won't claim to be one, but:

in terms of NPCs, you'd need at least a rep (or friendliness factor, whatever you want to call it) of 8 with the creature to even make them mildly neutral towards you unless it increases it by 50 points instead of 50%.

in terms of PCs, this is mostly seen for PVP usage, but I suppose for a more applicable RP use, you could look at it one of two ways. The increase of 50 points would set anyone to at least neutral, and in some cases friendly or more towards you. I suppose in that scenario someone who loves you (99, 100 points?) would worship the ground you walk on or something as it would ICly boost it to 150 points?

Or, if it increases it by 50%, then the average player who it's used on would react better to you, and the more said person gets along/likes you, the better the effect would be. (as someone who's hostile towards you would likely stop being hostile, but would still dislike you/hate your guts while someone who likes you would like you a lot more/love you.)

The reaction would have to be determined by the PC, but either way they'd react more "friendly" I suppose?

Like I said, I'm no expert at this and in the end its up to the DM team/Admin to decide how it affects people, I'm just going off how I think it might work. Still, for nwn spells, nwn standard is great for more PVP-oriented fighting spells, but not so good for some buffs and RP-oriented spells.


EDIT: Obviously the core rules charm person and NWN charm person have a similar effect, but if you look at things like range and duration, its very different.


EDITEDIT: Next on the list of spells to bring up; Evards Black Tentacles and how its... eh... actually nevermind not going to even go there.


EDITEDITEDIT: In terms of the daze effect, that was added because it would have been annoying on the developers end to set it up to change reputation values on PCs towards other PCs since it can be changed at any time by setting them to hostile and the like, so the daze was to represent the "charmed" effect.

Not sure why merchants get the -10 to appraise, but I'm guessing its to represent being more friendly with the player in the same way that a charmed merchant in oblivion will give you better deals?


Last edited by Kakashi on Crack on Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:57 am; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : added EDIT)
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Re: Charm Person Spell

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